NOTE: I'm going to apologize in advance. This blog post turned out to be a lot longer than I anticipated. It might rival some writings by James315 in length, so for the TLDR guys, I'm sorry. I've gone over this a couple of times, cut out some of the fat, but what remains I feel needs to be said in order to clear some of the confused air from my last posting, and clarify a couple of points that have come up since.
Grab yourself a light snack and a beer, we're going to be here for a bit.
The Bonus Room
I'll start with the incident in question: The Bonus Room. I'm not sure how many of you listened to the full 2 hours of the recording, but I'm guessing not many people made it all the way front to back. Well, it was bad... actually it was beyond bad.
the long con. Scams in Eve are usually fairly quick and dirty. Get in, get what you want, get out, and move on to the next mark. In this case, Sohkar was lured in with the old ISK doubling game. It started small, and his isk was doubled time and again to the point where he put a billion ISK into play. Erotica 1, smelling someone who is either A: not too bright, or B: entirely too trusting, went for the home run. He doubled the guy's ISK and then invited him along for the bonus round on his 3rd party TS3 server.
Now, the average Eve player of even middling intelligence probably would never have gotten to the billion ISK mark. I've played Sohkar's end of the ISK doubling game myself, with the knowledge that the scam works better if a few people are paid out and claim legitimacy in local. The most I've ever given someone to double is 10 million ISK. I'm happy to report that I've turned a small profit playing the game, but give an ISK doubler a billion? Surely you jest! Please feel free to respond in the comments if (before you heard anything about the bonus room) you would have given Erotica 1 a billion of your isk to double, assuming you have that much.
Even if you were to get to the billion point, the next part of this con should have sent warning alarms screaming all over your brain. In the Bonus Room, Sohkar was convinced to not only give over his full API key, he was required to contract ALL of his assets, NEX store clothing, ISK, liquidate LP, I mean the WORKS. Even if you are space rich and would have risked the billion, now I would like a show of hands of how many of you would trust ANYONE (outside of maybe immediate family) in Eve with every last shred of e-wealth you have in your name.
No, really, don't be shy, I'd honestly like to know.
As the great Sherlock Holmes used to say: "Once you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." We have effectively eliminated a high degree of intelligence from the equation at this point, and possibly a middle degree of it as well. Common sense is also out the window. That leaves me with Stupid, or Drunk.
Some of you at this point will be fuming mad at my words. I'm victim bashing you might say (Someone on Failheap Challenge actually called me a cunt for this). Well, the sad truth of the matter is that up to this point in the con (Phase 1) I didn't feel even a shred of pity for Sohkar. There was positively nothing wrong with the con yet. Everything was perfectly allowable under the rule of law in Eve, and nothing that had happened in game at that point would ever be successfully petitioned against. This is also the point where the overwhelming majority of Eve's scammers would cut and run with their ill gotten gains, leaving a very angry Sohkar with the realization that everything, even the shirt off his back, has been stolen. Had Erotica 1 stopped here, a very large portion of Eve's community would give him a round of applause for a masterful heist.
Unfortunately, Erotica 1 did not stop at the end of Phase 1. He and his friends, already in possession of every last thing Sohkar owned in Eve, then proceeded to see how far they could push him until he snapped. I'll spare you the gory details, but it took quite a while (almost an hour and a half) before the wheels finally came off. This was where Erotica 1 and friends took a brilliant scam, and turned it into a sadistic game.
I like tears as much as the next guy, but this went way WAY too far. You've got the guys stuff, tell him he's been scammed, let him rage for a few minutes, maybe teach him a valuable lesson about not trusting strangers, and move on.
The last half hour or so of the recording involves Sohkar completely losing his shit. That part really made me sad. Here you had this guy that had been strung along for an hour and a half, who should have gone to bed quite some time before so he could get up in the morning and "Control Planes," finally come to the realization that he'd been scammed out of everything he owns in Eve. He swore gratuitously, threatened E1 and friends, and at some points I was fairly certain he was crying. His wife came on, first pleaded with the scammers to give her husband his stuff back, and then began to lose it herself.
Look, I don't care who you are in Eve, or on planet Earth. I don't think anyone deserves to be treated the way Erotica 1 and his friends treated Sohkar. It was entirely uncalled for. If Sohkar is mentally handicapped in some way (and I certainly hope not if he's really an air traffic controller) then what Erotica 1 and his friends did was nigh unforgivable.
Why CCP Can't Act?
Here's the rub though: Regardless of what you or I think should be done about this, there isn't a damn thing CCP can do here without getting into some VERY muddy water. I know some people are calling bullshit on this, so I'm going to have to explain in some detail here what the implications are.
As I mentioned earlier, everything up through Phase 1 of this con was Grade A acceptable under current Eve scamming establishment. From Phase 2 onward, Eve ceased to be the medium of play for this "game". Did it happen on Eve Voice? An in game chat channel? At fanfest? On the official Eve Forums? On any server maintained by CCP? I'm afraid not. It happened on Teamspeak, and we can split hairs all day about "But they were clearly in game at the time" but it doesn't matter. The logs don't show a damn thing. Unless Erotica 1 or one of his buddies went onto Eve-O after they were done recording and splashed the link around bragging about what they did there is NOTHING, not one damn thing, that CCP can or should do about this....
I hate to be cliché here, but this is a can of worms CCP would do well to stay out of. But let me play the devil's advocate. Let's say that the people on the internet screaming for blood get their wish, and CCP comes down on those involved hard, and I mean HARD. Bans are thrown out... PERMA bans! Asset siezures! Sohkar gets all his stuff back! All based off of a TS3 recording someone put up on the internet.
Think about that for a minute... Still don't see a flaw?
Well, CCP would be in the business of not only policing their game and their own servers, but every form of communication related to them. Say something offensive and harassing to another player on Failheap Challenge? Enjoy your vacation from Eve! I could be on Gal Mil TS tomorrow in fleet, and the FC could call me out offensively for doing something stupid, like jumping a gate early. Now I'm pissed and I have the recording. Let me just file this petition because I was obviously harassed and called nasty names. I talked about posting porn out of game in 3rd party comms. Peace out bro.
This interview I did with Tyrant Scorn for Legacy of a Capsuleer was originally over 2 hours before he cut it down. I'd challenge any of you to find all the cuts and splices in there, but don't bother because you won't. Hell, that recording is even how I remember that interview going at this point.
Right now, everything you can get petitioned against in eve has some sort of server log to back up the evidence. If we were to go down this road, your only defense against something like this would be to record all of your TS3, mumble, etc. conversations, and who wants to waste hard drive space on that? If someone who knows what they're doing really has it out for you, they could take bits of things you said yesterday, last week, and 2 months ago, slap it together in a perfectly plausible recording, and petition your ass right out the door. All they really need is you saying the name of a dev like Mintchip, and then talking some shit about someone else. You could deny it of course, but suppose they had a bunch of other people who also don't like you to back them up? Game over man, game over.
Can you begin to see why this precedent would be an incredibly bad thing for any of us in Eve? Never mind for a minute the additional strain it would put on CCPs GM staff who already have a back log of IN GAME petitions as it is. Now they would have to not only have to determine if harassment occurred, but they would also have to determine if the evidence is legit. Who the hell wants THAT on their plate? I'm thinking the answer is 'no one.'
Oh, and that thing about Cyber Bullying
This one came up on Twitter. I have made assertions in the past about Cyber Bullying and how it relates strictly to children, and does not carry over into the law of adult life between grown men. Many states in the USA have actual Cyber Bully laws on the books. They are important laws because they protect children, and you will never hear or read an utterance from me against them. Ever.
If a kid is picked on at school, in their neighborhood, online, or anyplace, I feel horrible. Adults that get involved with it are the lowest of the low. If there's something I can do to stop it, or make things better, you're damn right I will!
There comes a point though, where it's not my job to protect and stand up for you anymore. That point is when you become a grown man (or woman). At that point, you should have the ability to stick up for yourself if someone is picking on you, making fun of you, ridiculing you, whatever. One would hope that as responsible adults we'd behave like decent human beings to each other, but this is the internet.
There comes a point in your life where you have to take responsibility for yourself, and your own well being. Someone may get mad at you and say some vulgar things. If they break the law, or put you in danger, you call the police.
I will never defend the actions of a guy like Erotica 1. Never. If he breaks the law and I bear witness to it, I will happily testify in court against him, no hesitation. If someone's life or limb is in danger because of something someone did to them on the internet, let's call the authorities and get them involved. If an Eve player is harassed by someone in game, go right ahead and ban that mofo.
But grown men who believe other grown men deserve the same protections afforded to 12 year old school boys need to have their heads examined. Grow up, grow a spine, stick up for yourself, and stop trying to make it the responsibility of others to stick up for you.
While I'll never defend a guy like Erotica 1 and his friends, don't expect me to come to your rescue if you get yourself caught up in his con either.
In the eternal words of CCP Guard: "Harden the fuck up"
The thing about this for me is where would CCP stop if they went down this path. I really hope they think this through carefully.ReplyDelete
That's the trick. I really think the smart play for them is to review the logs, see if there was anything they can nail Erotica & co for on an in game basis, and if nothing TOS/EULA breaking can be shown in game, step back and let the community work this out. Providing the community does not break TOS/EULA in game as well, I don't see any reprisal there either.Delete
So you're hoping for an IRS vs Al Capone scenario?Delete
Or a Community vs Mintchip scenario?
What do you mean "community vs. Mintchip"? If you're referring to why she was eventually let go from CCP, I'm positive that had nothing to do with the community, and everything to do with her being a useless tit. She spent most of her time talking about DOTA2 than she did repping for DUST 514.Delete
@ Mara: Hoping, no. See it happening. Yes. The community has shown that when they REALLY don't like someone, the lynch mob is vicious.Delete
No Poe, I'm referring to the only CCP employee welcome thread to ever get deleted from the forums.Delete
I betcha you don't get Ripard's seal of approval next week. :)ReplyDelete
I don't think he's ever given it to me anyway. It's odd, but i seem to function fine without it. :) I, however, would relish word sparring with him if he chooses to come back at me on this.Delete
You got my vote with this post.Delete
Well said, Bacon. You just got my vote for CSM, and another reader. Someone pointed me to your blog during this whole tempest in a teapot fiasco.ReplyDelete
I think my whole position is that, while I wouldn't ever do something like this myself, that player freedom is worth defending.
A well reasoned post. And dead wrong. I see 2000 people policing the EVE community, and 14 or so people trying hard to prevent it.ReplyDelete
I think the players are deciding Erotica 1's fate quite satisfactorily. It's only for CCP to seal it, not decide it.
I'm interested to see how this plays out. I don't think this is going to end the way you think it will though.Delete
I will say though, the player reactions are great. I heard about the BNI kick and a couple other things. The community as a whole has the ability to run Erotica out on rails, and make his in-game life extremely difficult. Maybe they can force him out, or at least force him into an anonymous alt. If it works, there's nothing CCP can do to him worse that what the community can come up with I'm sure.Delete
Actually that's completely wrong. While the player reactions are great, what they can do pales in comparison to what CCP could do. While there are many individuals who's presence extends out of game, Erotica 1 is not one of those, for most of us, our our knowledge of him is the forums and Jita local.Delete
Who are the 2,000? Chribba says 395 total posters in the threadnaught:Delete
Because mob rule is so awesome, right? What fun it will be trying to guess what faux pas will be decided is a bannable offense next.Delete
Ripard is testing the waters to see if he has Mittani-like powers over the community.Delete
I like how he says you're "dead wrong" without explaining. What a fucking simpleton.
"I will say though, the player reactions are great. I heard about the BNI kick and a couple other things. The community as a whole has the ability to run Erotica out on rails, and make his in-game life extremely difficult. Maybe they can force him out, or at least force him into an anonymous alt. If it works, there's nothing CCP can do to him worse that what the community can come up with I'm sure."Delete
Exactly. If the community can find ways to punish Erotica 1, then Ripard has proved himself a fascist ass. CCP does not need to flex any muscle in this situation. This is something the sandbox can manage.
I'd rather play a game in which the community decides what is acceptable. Not a game in which we all cower under the whims of what Ripard decides is acceptable.
so, operation torches and pitchforks was a success then?Delete
And that's a good point Poe, but Ripard didn't do it on his own. he got some promotional help. Erotica 1 is an easy target for this sort of thing though given what he did. I doubt Ripard would have as easy of a time with someone who was just a scammer.Delete
Also, this mob thing is nothing new. It's happened before, and it'll happen again.
I'm not really sure how the community can police itself though? How exactly are we supposed to police erotica1? He barely undocks.Delete
Maybe I'm not up on what has happened lately. Details would be appreciated. But mere denunciation by the community achieves little if CCP simply shrugs.
Did you really just say that adults can't be bullied?ReplyDelete
Completely out of context in regards to THIS situation, but bullying isn't exclusive to kids friend.
Coersion, intimidation and physical harassment are all examples of bullying and all are used by adults every day.
And I would call them coercion, intimidation, and *pick your type of* harassment. Not bullying.Delete
«foo» harassment is just the grown up version of bullying. It's the same activity, same personalities involved. The only difference is that the people involved drink, drive, no longer wear school uniforms, and can't run to mummy and daddy for hugs because they're dead.Delete
You call it a spade, I call it a shovel, someone else calls it a "diggy thing".
Try telling someone you were sexually harassed. Then tell someone you were bullied. It's the same thing right? Or is it?Delete
Sexual assault is different to sexual harassment. Sexual harassment is just bullying, the same as the bullying at school. In fact that's part of its definition: sexual harassment is bullying of a sexual nature.Delete
I never said assault. we're splitting hairs at this point, but here's where I'm at. In the adult world, certain types of harassment, and other behaviors are illegal. They have names, and none of them are referred to as bullying. The only time you will find cyber bullying used in the context of criminal law, is in the case of children. I have yet to come across any prosecution of cyber bullying taking place between 2 adults. Assault? yes. Certain types of harassment? Yes. blackmail? you bet. You could say to some extent that it's all bullying, but you're really pushing it, and it sounds ridiculous and not nearly as serious as what it is. You call those things what they actually are, and there is no question at all. Words matter in this case.Delete
Words matter, yes. The legal definitions are different to lay definitions, and legal texts are not a substitute for a dictionary. In the USA "bullying" is used specifically in "Cyber Bullying" which relates to harassment of minors via the Internet, while in Australia there is no legal definition of "cyber bullying" because it's all covered under the harassment legal umbrella (and it doesn't matter whether there's a minor or the internet involved, verbal harassment is still harassment and is still referred to by non-lawyers as "bullying").Delete
Wait...Person does horrible, demeaning, humiliating things to somebody else, admits to doing so by posting it on the internet because horrible person thinks it's funny. Community generally agrees this is beyond the pale and doesn't want horrible person around, but CCP shouldn't do anything because...now people will abuse the precedent by making up fake horrible things and reporting it to CCP?ReplyDelete
Your slippery slope argument breaks down simply because it's a false slope. Nobody filed a petition, nobody created a false narrative out spliced recording and this wasn't a case of being berated by an FC. There is no question of guilt or even that this was abusive. I understand the argument, but I just don't buy it.
But let's say I did. What should the response to this be?
*I* don't want people like this as part of my community because I think it poisons the whole. This goes beyond the game into using the game as a stalking ground for psychological abuse victims. That is NOT a freedom worth defending.
Well, you can look at what is happening to Erotica 1 within the community right now. He's having a pretty hard go of it, and well deserved. When someone gains the ire of certain aspects of the community, there is nothing CCP can do that is worse than what some of the players can come up with and execute.Delete
I'm watching this go down with quite a bit of interest.
Maybe CCP has a duty of care to Erotica 1 to permaban him now, so he can escape the limelight?Delete
"Hey guys, we permabanned that jerk."
*community calms down*
*Erotica 1 returns with a new account, no longer under threat of waking up to find the car egged and toiletpapered*
There is precedent for CCP banning players for their own protection. The guy Mittens called out at that fanfest was temp banned for his own protection because of the harassment he was getting as a result, or at least, that's what he told me when I interviewed him about it some time later.Delete
"*I* don't want people like this as part of my community because I think it poisons the whole."Delete
Some people don't want gays in their community, because it poisons the whole.
What's makes your choices of who to remove from the community any different from hardcore Christians and homophobes?
I can't seriously believe you are comparing not wanting an individual who engages in active and obvious emotional abuse in our gaming community with gay rights.Delete
I think I understand the point you are trying to make, but I'd try again because "anti-abuser" is very different than "homophobic bigot"
He's illustrating why Jester's appeal to the people is a logical FALLACY.Delete
His argument was a logical fallacy.Delete
The post basically boils down to anarchy, that any one group trying to say another group can't do something is the exact same thing. Simply put, that is not the kind of society we live in.
The game of Eve may be largely an anarchy, but it only exists within the real world and exacting real world emotional abuse on someone within its bounds should still mean something. This isn't a "right to free speech" issue, and this isn't a "sandbox game" issue - E1 put it way past that.
Poe, that is just asinine. While I understand what you are getting at, the fact is you are attempting to draw a comparison to bigotry based on who a person is, to moral outrage at how a person behaves. Further, E1's behavior was one of willfully causing harm to another because causing harm is enjoyable to him. I think it's fully justifiable to say that a person doesn't find it acceptable in their community for a person to cause another harm and if a person does that, they will be removed from the community.Delete
Lastly, this is how society works. We just have very complicated means of enacting those activities acceptable in a community in real life (laws, courts, social mores, community standards).
The current discussion is interesting philosophically because 1) we are determining what behaviors we as a community will tolerate and 2) what our response to such behaviors should be. A meta-sandbox for our sandbox. Fascinating.
The thing is, the can of worms is well and truely open. The threadnaught exists, and it seems pretty likely that CCP will take some action even if it just some sort of official comment on the matter.ReplyDelete
As a candidate for CSM, you should have an opinion on this matter and its good to see that you've stated one, however I'd like some more details.
If the Bonus Room had been conducted in game do you think that CCP should have banned any of the participants?
The Bonus Room recordings appear to have been conducted out of game to avoid being in explicit violation of the EULA, and obviously would've never happened without the extended in game scam. Do you feel this form of meta-gaming is something that should be a part of the extended eve environment?
If it happened through a CCP service with verifiable logs? Completely different conversation at that point. There is precedent for people getting the hammer for less. All of those people did their deed on or through a CCP service with logs, though. It's just unreasonable to expect them to police players using 3rd party services out of the game.Delete
The Bonus Room might have been done out of game to avoid breaching the TOS. It also might have been done because they think Eve Voice sucks. you'd have to ask Erotica 1 how clever he thinks he is to get an answer to that.
From reading E1's posts in the threadnaught and other posts including the one where she linked the soundcloud in question (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4282658#post4282658) I have no doubt that E1 is a pretty clever and savvy individual. Pretty much everyone agrees on what happened, which is a place to start, the disagreement is over what the consequences should be.Delete
You're correct that it is unreasonable to expect CCP to police all out of game actions, but they do have the ability to take actions based on out of the game evidence (said evidence doesn't appear to be in dispute). Additionally the EULA is discretionary, they obviously don't take action on all violations.
The CSM exists as player advisory group to CCP. In a very real sense they represent the community. And the extension of in-game actions into the real world is definitely a community action.
What I was asking really a moral question. On a personal level do you think that the Bonus Room should be a part of the extended game world?
As I mentioned above, I didn't see anything wrong with the bonus room up through the end of phase 1. After that, on a personal level, no, i don't think that sort of stuff should be happening at all. A line was crossed, but unfortunately it wasn't a legal or TOS/EULA related one.Delete
Erotica 1 and his alts/minions expressed many times in that thread that they were very careful to review the EULA and local laws to ensure that what they were doing was not illegal. At the beginning of the Bonus Room recording Erotica 1 states that much. Part of it is the con: "it's not illegal, so by implication it's legitimate." Part of it is arse-covering ("we do this on Teamspeak to avoid violating the EULA"), none of it is "EVE voice sucks."Delete
Thanks for adding to their bag of defensive tricks. Cue Erotica 1 minion stating that teamspeak is preferred due to reliability, in an attempt to shroud the Bonus Room in the implication of legitimacy.
"CCP will take some action even if it just some sort of official comment on the matter."Delete
I would be very surprised if they even commented.
The sticks and stones taunt has been forgotten because it's just that, a taunt. A bluff. I was bullied a great deal as a child, and the bullying I remember four decades later is psychological, not physical.ReplyDelete
What Erotica 1 did is actually worse than if he'd just beaten the guy down. And, piety notwithstanding, you essentially think he should be free to do it.
Awesome. I sincerely hope that you and your loved ones never run into his like. I have. If you do, my condolences: you will never, ever forget it.
What would you have me do? You have to ask yourselfDelete
A: Did he violate the TOS in game? At this point, the logs show nothing, and it appears this heinously offensive event happened outside of CCP's jurisdiction. If they act, then they set a precedent where anything anyone says or does to another player outside of Eve is subject to in game consequences. It might seem reasonable in this case given the circumstances, but now the door is open for lesser things to draw similar attention and punishment. Maybe CCP can find some technicality... like some of the ISK transferred was obtained through RMT, or something WAS said in game during the event that breaks the TOS. There's your window. I can't help but think that if any of that was the case, he'd have already gotten the hammer.
B: Did he violate any laws? At this point the answer is no, but I'm no lawyer, so maybe there's something. Inform the authorities and let them handle it if that's the case.
Outside of that, the only recourse you have is to beat Erotica 1 at his own game, or deny him the attention he craves, which seems to be what he was after in the first place.
I don't know anything about Makalu Zarya and whatever this song references is before my time in Eve. But his freakout towards the end is epic. Especially the part where he is swearing and pounding his keyboard on the desk. One of the commentors even tagged it "Keyboard is primary!" because it is super funny. What I don't understand is why people kept blowing up his Tengu when it was obvious how upset it was making him. They had spies in his coms (recording without his permission I presume), so they obviously knew, but kept doing it.
The song does elude to one thing Maklu knew to do though. When he wasn't having fun any more, he logged out.
This sort of thing goes on in Eve all the time, is celebrated with Youtube videos, and even incorporated into song by one of Eve's celebs. It seems to me the horses have gotten pretty high over Erotica 1.
Another thing that was brought up on twitter is that it's a fairly common practice to ransom someone's pod by making them come on to your TS server and sing a song. This practice has been done almost since Eve was released in 2003. You could say this is ok if the person gets to keep their pod, but sometimes the person does not sing well, or the ransomer decided he wasn't trying hard enough, or just to be a dick, pops the pod anyway. Now that is nowhere near the level of what erotica 1 just did, but it's got some similarities to it, and by acting here, CCP opens that practice up for review as well.Delete
In your example, yes, Makalu could possibly petition CCP that he was being unduly harassed by his recorded comms being put into a song making fun of him and posted on soundcloud for other players to hear. If CCP were to set the precedent by punishing Erotica 1, then Sindel Pellion might need to watch what she puts in her Eve parodies as well.
Seems to me, based on the "Erotica 1 Standard" he was being harassed by having his Tengu blown up when it was obviously so distressing to him. I simply do not understand how Maklu being in a fleet fight, taking losses, and freaking-the-hell-out, is any different than Sohkar. Yet, one is celebrated hilariously in song by Sindel, and the other has players calling for a ban of Erotica 1. Heck, the song was specifically, and undeniably, created to shame and humiliate Maklu.Delete
"My sincerest thanks to Makalu Zarya for providing such fantastic material for this song. Without your temper tantrums and ridiculous fleets, I'd be nothing.
Well... that's not true. But I figured the ego boost would help. You big baby."
I would say that as far as the "slippery slope" argument is concerned, that this is a great point. If precedent is going to be set that anytime someone gets upset enough that the "victim" can get them banned, then fine.Delete
It is now my position that being .01'ed is psychologically distressing to me. Ban anyone who one ups me on the market, because they won't stop doing it and it's "torture".
Singing ransoms are no longer allowed AFAIK, and have not been for a while. It's too open to abuse to force someone to join communication channels outside of the game, which gives rise to aberrations like the one causing all this ruckus right now.Delete
That's what I was told by a GM when I wanted to make a ransom christmas album a few years back anyways :<
CCP Gargant sang to ransom his and his newbie fleet's ships late last year in a wormhole.Delete
LMGTFY "Makalu Zarya soundboard" http://www.soundboard.com/sb/Very%20best%20of%20Makalu%20ZaryaDelete
Not sure why you're singling Sindel out.
Uhm actually, harassment is an banable offense for quite a while and I'm pretty sure this falls under it. I mean this is way beyond blurred lines.ReplyDelete
That said, as long as the victim doesn't report it there is nothing CCP can or should do.
Also people need to stop to get that populist ripart attention whore teg all the attention on posts like that.
Ripard is soon to be replaced by Xander on the CSM. One populist whore replaced by another.Delete
Yes, I'm a whore too. But I'm not populist.
Sorry to bring it to you, but the word for you is idiot, not whore.Delete
Having been in large corporations faced with thorny issues (e.g. no law is formally broken but there is something fishy / that runs against fundamental "core values"), we would always go back to a fundamental: the "newspaper test" (it's usually used for emails, however it's also used for the thorny issues).ReplyDelete
Would it be a problem if the act in question was published on the front page of a newspaper?
If the answer is yes, then CCP must address it.
Also, I'm very tempted to go fish for the contact information of CCP's investors and see how THEY would react if CCP did nothing...
Most of CCP's investors are shady Russians. Read up on it. There's some shady connections to a soft drink distribution feud in St. Petersberg, which resulted in one competitor being assassinated.Delete
At any rate, I'm not sure the Russians would care.
Wouldn't it be a great response to these issues for all of us to act a bit less douchebaggy, and start treating triumphs and not tears as the currency of our enjoyment in Eve?ReplyDelete
Then encourage others to do so by not propping them up when they are d-bagging it up, even discouraging this behaviour?
I agree that CCP shouldn't "do" anything about stuff that doesn't involve the EULA etc, but they could definitely tighten up on the image they give to Eve, and on discouraging the nastier behaviours of players.
Surprised that in the EULA there is nothing that states that an account holder is also not allowed to bring the game into disrebute whilst out of game. Maybe it should be CCP that learns from this and adds that clause to the agreement.ReplyDelete
How do you word that? Does that mean if FunkyBacon criticises EVE Online on his blog that he's brought the game into ill-repute?Delete
Constructive criticism i doubt would be a concern but what has happened here and the negative publicity it is causing cannot be good for CCP.Delete
Perhaps the idea is to get Ripard banned for bringing the game into disrepute with this storm in a teacup.Delete
Since he has admitted and endorsed the soundcloud in question I think the framing him defense is out of the question. As for the slippery slope argument it goes both ways. Any ruling on this can also be used to escalate even further into this sort of behaviour. it has to be determined on a case by case basis.ReplyDelete
I can only agree with poster. I was good with the scam. You would never give anyone, especially someone you don't know and have never met before, ALL of your assets. All of it. Who in their right mind does that?ReplyDelete
The psycho warfare though, I'm not ok with that. It has no other purpose than to humiliate the victim.
I listened to about 30 seconds of the recording and it was clear as day: E1 is an operator. This is a guy who was trained in this sort of technique and who uses it to get his jollies. None of this is something he 'just happened to think about', this is the action of someone who knows what he is doing, why he is doing it and who he is doing it to.
This is done with malice aforethought. Up to and including getting the guy to blow his top. They will not insult him, they will get him to insult them so they can then say: well, we weren't the ones threatening physical violence. All of that is part of the package. All of this is part of the plan. This is the work of a pshychopath.
I think the marks aren't the only victims in this, either. He's managed to convince a few people that this is an okay thing to do, and they've joined him as Escrow Agents. I've heard a couple of them say that the practice squicked them out at first but over time their objections sort of disappeared.Delete
Sohkar himself said from the beginning that Ero was a scammer and wanted nothing to do with it, but with at least two of Ero's alts working on him from different angles (one feeding him a sob story about Ero stealing his stuff), Sohkar's resistance to going to the Bonus Room was worn down, too.
I dunno if Ero himself is past redemption. His cohorts may well benefit from some time away from that oddball phone sex voice he has, though.
You say, there's nothing CCP can do to him worse that what the community can come up with. But what can we do really?ReplyDelete
There is absolutely nothing we can do to stop him sitting in a station and convoing random dudes he finds in chat channels to try to scam them. Anything we do to him otherwise in game would constitute as spamming or harassment and get a ban.
I've been playing Eve for 10 years. I have seen this sort of lynch mob mentality in the past. I've seen people's personal details posted all over the net, heard the stories of their places of work being called up and false complaints raised against them, their houses called, death threats levelled against them (all out of game). Some stuff that could be reported to the police, some stuff where there wouldn't be enough evidence to track down the actual person who did it.Delete
By comparison, a ban seems pretty tame no? You should read the stuff that happened to the Mittani after his drunk episode at fanfest. If you can find the guy, ask T20 what happened to him. CCP might kick you out of the game, but they're not going to call your wife at 2am, or try to get you fired from your job.
I guess that the main reason I'm even on this side of the fence is because of the way that Ripard framed his position. It isn't cyber-torture, Sokhar shouldn't be raised onto the sacrosanct platform of 'VICTIM' where the mere suggestion that he might have been greedy or stupid is considered evil and GMs who consistently demonstrate an intrinsic lack of understanding about the spirit of the game shouldn't start banning people who didn't actually break the rules of EVE simply because they 'can' and they 'should'.ReplyDelete
You think this is despicable and Erotica may have crossed the line, pending an investigation by CCP that may prove fruitless because the logs show nothing. I agree with you.
I'm afraid that as far as a lot of people are concerned, they have already constructed the straw-man effigy of you and they intend to burn you inside it. They don't care what you think and they won't give you a chance to represent your actual opinion.
~~I was afk for a while, so I couldn't respond upthread~~ReplyDelete
There is some relevant discussion going on in the reddit thread on this post.
While CCP can of course chose to do nothing, as there is no legal requirement for them to do anything, there is perhaps a moral requirement for them to respond to actions that a fair proportion of their userbase ultimately felt crossed a line into unacceptable behaviour.
While the Bonus Room round takes place outside of the game, it extends directly from the earlier in game scam. Without that earlier action to select and condition appropriate marks there would be no point to the Bonus Room. Thus you could probably consider this part of the much vaunted eve meta-game and CCP should definitely respond to this and quickly.
I asked FunkyBacon about his personal opinion on this matter, but there's another more relevant question I didn't get a chance to ask.
If you were on the CSM what would you advise CCP to do about the Erotica 1 Bonus Room recordings?
After reading a huge amount of the threadnought's on this topic one thing is perfectly clear....ReplyDelete
Poethetic Stanziel really is a cock in a fishbowl... 7o
What Erotoica 1 does in game is not my play style, but at the same time I'm glad that Eve is a sandbox where just about anything goes. I live in a wormhole and enjoy PVP, and I don't discriminate in my target selection -it doesn't matter if you're ready for it or not, if you're a carebear or a dedicated PVPer, the ZOMG-SuprizeButtSecsPVP is coming. I don't care if that was your ratting Tengu, if I have it locked and pointed it's going to die. You loved that Tengu, spent a lot of your valuable time to acquire it so it has some intrinsic value even if it is just pixels, and I took it away from you and didn't care how you felt about it. So at the end of the day just how far removed am I, or anyone else who plays Eve, from Erotica 1?...ReplyDelete
Eve Online is a rough game, and we are all here because we like to bite the pillow...
I brought up the cyberbullying charge on Twitter (among others), so let me just say, after listening to the whole fiasco, I don't think you're dealing with a victim that has all his mental faculties. I think he is, at the very least, slow, and possibly facing other challenges. Granting that I am not a mental health professional with no direct access to the person, but if that's the case, I think the cyberbullying charge would stick, and the dismissal of it as a thing not relevant for an adult wouldn't make sense.ReplyDelete
Now having said all that, and having said that I think Erotica 1 is a scumbag...I have heard absolutely no one commenting on this decry the vile racist language the victim lapses into when he starts to get angry. The fact that he starts dropping N-bombs left and right (and he means exactly the worst uses of the word--mixes it with "slave" and "master" references) seems to have no impact on folks' level of sympathy for him (probably because they didn't listen to the video).
I despise Erotica 1 and his behavior and feel bad for the guy, but he deserves some serious condemnation as well.
Given Sohkar's state of mind at the time he finally snapped, I'm willing to give him a slight pass on the language he used.I don't know the guy, but I doubt he walks around in his every day life talking to people like that. People having a breakdown are liable to say some pretty insane shit.Delete
I find your premise highly ridiculous. Someone made someone else feel bad. What more logic could you need? After all we have a hive minded mob to guide CCP's moral choices for all future situations.ReplyDelete
I may not be serious, but this is the core principle behind most people's objections. It is disturbingly like American politics.
For the sake of your children I hope you don't share your father's attitude. Children getting bullied is a real & serious problem and trivializing it makes you look at best naive and at worst malicious.ReplyDelete
Should have said any bullying (not just children)Delete
I agree with you that it's out of the realm of CCP's jurisdiction. If CCP did do anything about this it won't be long and there'll be a TS recording of the Mitani conspiring with Islamic terrorists.ReplyDelete
Furthermore, I didn't listen to the whole thing, but parts of it, and even if you were gonna make a case against anyone based off the recording it would more likely be Sohkar. He was the one freaking out and making threats and calling names and whatnot. Erotica 1 & friends remained (maddeningly) polite and civil throughout everything I heard. I'm assuming it was all bullshit, but they were trying to encourage the guy and were very courteous. (If you don't believe that then listen to the thing) Don't get me wrong, Erotica 1 is a grade a asshole, I think many of us knew that long ago, but the recording speaks for itself. Like I said, I didn't listen to the whole thing, but so far as I heard they never said one ill or demeaning thing to the guy the entire time, while he didn't hold back anything. I think there might have been a few word combinations in there I'd never even heard before. I'm sure someone is gonna flip shit over this opinion, but actually listen to some of it instead of just hearing from someone who talked to someone else who heard it and tell me I'm wrong.
It's never a bad idea that before you form a conviction to actually (gasp!) examine the evidence. (I'm not talking to you bacon, but the people who are out calling for blood) I may be in no position to talk, since I didn't listen to all of it either, but I didn't feel like listening to him read for an hour and I think I caught the important part anyway.
As for making any sort of a legal case... it pains me that laws like that may even exist (hopefully they don't), but if it were possible, it would be Sohkar as the defendant, not the victim. He's the one who made wild threats and insults. In a relatively short period of time I'm pretty sure he threw out more foul language than every Quentin Terantino movie plus the Big Lebowski and the Southpark movie all put together. It was enough to make a sailor blush. For the number of times he said "nigger" (and in some of the contexts!!!) I'm shocked the outcry isn't against him instead of Erotica 1. I think the main reason is that Erotica 1 had already collected (not undeservedly) a particularly slimy reputation. Not even just for scamming, but generally as a person. And, even more so, I suspect that most of those calling for blood didn't listen to it at all and instead immediately developed a knee jerk opinion and will follow it to the death based on nothing what-so-ever but their combination of baseless assumptions and know-it-all attitude mixed with an unhealthy lack of curiosity. That's a real disease when it comes to politics, and it looks like it affects this issue in Eve as well.
CCP choose who they do business with. If they don't want to do business with you, you can't force them to regardless of how much you would like to.
That is how the world works. When the Lance Armstrong doping saga was blown open, many companies chose not to do business with him. It happens. Get over it.
seems you got something againt Teg..ReplyDelete
You should read this:
Sir, you can't ignore what happened here just because he moved to a TS3 voice server... He solicited for victims in EvE and thus CCP may decide to ban him from access.ReplyDelete
Sir, you lost my vote
It's a vote I doubt I ever had in the first place :)Delete
stick a bacon roll up your fat greasy arse bro. I am glad that erotica fuckwit socitard is banned. CCP did something right. All you butthurt sociopaths should fist yourselves.ReplyDelete